{"id":4821,"date":"2014-04-16T00:00:38","date_gmt":"2014-04-16T04:00:38","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/smugfilm.com\/?p=4821"},"modified":"2025-08-11T21:21:08","modified_gmt":"2025-08-12T01:21:08","slug":"an-interview-with-joan-darling","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/an-interview-with-joan-darling\/","title":{"rendered":"An Interview with Director and Actress Joan Darling, Pioneer of the 70’s"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"joandarling\"
\nJoan Darling (bottom left), part of the cast of Owen Marshall: Counselor at Law<\/a> (1971-1973)<\/h5>\n

Joan Darling entered show business as an actress on the New York theater scene in the 1960s, then became a fixture of early 70’s television. In 1974, she made the leap from acting to directing and quickly made history as one of the first and most successful women directors in television. She had an instant knack for it\u2014her debut,\u00a0Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman<\/a>, a soap opera parody, has become an enduring cult classic for its dark-edged humor and deep understanding of the desperation and sadness of the American home.<\/em><\/p>\n

Highlights of her career include a Mary Tyler Moore<\/a>\u00a0episode, Chuckles Bites the Dust<\/a>, which, for its deft tightrope-walk between comedy and pathos, TV Guide calls the greatest television episode ever; a classic M*A*S*H<\/a> episode, The Nurses<\/a>, which \u00a0revolutionized the way the show portrayed women; and a leading role in an episode of The Psychiatrist<\/a>,\u00a0directed by\u00a0a pre-Jaws<\/a>, pre-Duel<\/a> Spielberg.<\/em><\/p>\n

These days, Joan teaches acting and directing classes at the Sundance Filmmakers Lab<\/a>.\u00a0She agreed to a phone interview, and in about an hour, I learned more about the arts of acting and directing than I ever thought possible:<\/em>
\n
\nThere\u2019s been a lot of talk lately about the role of women in TV and film and the opportunities for them. This made me think of the work you were doing in the \u201870s\u2014do you think we\u2019re doing better in that regard now than we were around, say, the <\/b>Mary Tyler Moore<\/b> era?<\/b><\/p>\n

Oh yeah. Much, much better. I mean ridiculously better. When I started, I was the only woman who was going to work every day as a director. There were a couple of people, of course\u2014Elaine May was directing and Ida Lupino had directed a couple of times, and early on there was another woman, I can\u2019t remember her last name. Dorothy…<\/p>\n

Arzner?<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah, Arzner, right. But then there was a big hiatus when no women had been doing it at all. When I started I was really the only one who was doing it; and the reality is that it was not my ambition. I wanted to be an actress. And I was working as an actress but Norman Lear gave me\u2014and that\u2019s a whole story\u2014Mary Hartman, and after I directed Mary Hartman and my agent showed the tapes of it to Grant Tinker, all of a sudden I was offered a whole season at the MTM [Mary Tyler Moore] company, and the only reason I took it was because there was no woman director, and I knew that a woman could do the job, you know, so I went ahead and took the job.<\/p>\n

So I guess the best way to really tell you how it\u2019s changed is: I was speaking at AFI right after I had started\u2014I was very fortunate in that for some reason I seem to know how to direct, which was a big surprise to me. So a lot of the early shows got a lot of attention and awards and things like that. So, I was speaking at AFI, and I was saying, \u201cIf you\u2019re truly yourself and this is something that you want to do, there\u2019s no reason why you can\u2019t do it, and that anybody who wants to be doing shows like the MTM show and all that, you\u2019re really wanting to be a member of the starting line on the New York Yankees, so you really have to go after it and you really have to make yourself as good as you can be.\u201d<\/p>\n

And a woman in the audience raised her hand and said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s all well and good for you superstars,\u201d she said, \u201cbut I don\u2019t think it will be equal until there are as many mediocre woman directors as there are mediocre men directors.\u201d<\/p>\n

And I just started to laugh. I said, \u201cYou\u2019re absolutely right.\u201d<\/p>\n

And now I\u2019ve been sitting at home watching a lot of television, because you know you can get everything on Netflix and Hulu and all that, and I began to notice all of the shows, how many women directors there were. You never saw women\u2019s names on the shows. Like Homeland<\/a>\u2014Lesli Glatter was a student of mine. She came to me because she wanted to be a director; she\u2019s now an associate producer on that show and a director on that show.<\/p>\n

If you watch Scandal<\/a>, I would say there are more women writing and directing for Scandal than there are men. And I know, there was a girl whose name escapes who directed a lot of Roseanne<\/a> who was around the Mary Hartman set. And she became a director. That was pretty early on, but now if you just sit down and look at the names on the shows of the directors, it might not be to where there are as many mediocre women directors as there are mediocre men directors, but the number of women who are directing now is exponentially larger than when I started.<\/p>\n

\"MARYHRTMN-CTIT-F\"
\nHow did you wind up with Mary Hartman?<\/b><\/p>\n

Well, let\u2019s see. I was on a television series [Owen Marshall, Counselor at Law] and it was winding down. And I knew Norman because I had done some writing for him, so I got this idea that I would come up with a Movie of the Week about Golda Meir from the time she was 16 to 60. So I worked out the whole story\u2014nobody had done anything about her at that time. So I went to Norman and I said, \u201cListen, Norman. I\u2019ve got this idea for a Movie of the Week about Golda Meir,\u201d and I told him this whole story, how the story laid out. And he said to me, \u201cOh, that\u2019s terrific,\u201d he said, \u201cI want you to tell it to somebody else.\u201d And he brought in his second-in-command, and I thought, \u201cOh boy, I\u2019m going to get to do this. I\u2019ll get my television movie.\u201d So I told the whole story, and Norm turned to him and said, \u201cI think she\u2019s the one.\u201d And he said, \u201cI think you\u2019re right.\u201d<\/p>\n

So Norm turned to me and said, \u201cDo you want to be a director?\u201d<\/p>\n

I said, \u201cI don\u2019t know, I\u2019ve never thought about it.\u201d<\/p>\n

And he said to me, \u201cWell that\u2019s what I think you really are.\u201d And he gave me the two pilot scripts of Mary Hartman.<\/p>\n

And I said, \u201cWell, let me read these and see if it\u2019s something I can do.\u201d So I went home and read them, and my first reaction was, \u201cI don\u2019t know what this is. This is neither fish nor fowl.\u201d Then I thought, wait a minute\u2014this might be something I\u2019ve never seen before. And I read it again and thought this is really interesting. So I went to Norman and I said, \u201cI don\u2019t know enough about myself to know if I\u2019m a director or not, whether I can deliver someone else\u2019s concept. But, I think I could deliver my own. So my idea about the show is that it\u2019s not a soap opera, but it\u2019s really about how television is destroying America.\u201d<\/p>\n

And I laid out to him what was in the show, that I thought this character was obsessed and overwhelmed by all this information that she got on television and that she thought if she lived the way television told her, she would be a happy person. And he said, \u201cWell, I didn\u2019t know if we wrote that, but if you could do it, that\u2019d be great.\u201d<\/p>\n

So, I said, \u201cOk, I\u2019m on board.\u201d And then I must\u2019ve spent about eight weeks casting. Norman gave me enormous power. Nobody was cast in the show unless it was somebody I wanted. And then, I directed the show. He went away on vacation, and I directed the show for two weeks, for two and a half hours [of screen time]. He came back and let me show him what I had done, and he just loved it.<\/p>\n

Somebody else was supposed to do the camerawork, and they came in to set the show up. They started to set the first show up and I thought, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t know what I\u2019m going to do. This is terrible.\u201d And Norman came up at the end of the day and said, \u201cWhat do you think about the camerawork?\u201d<\/p>\n

And I said, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t know anything about it but it doesn\u2019t look very good to me.\u201d He said, \u201cIt\u2019s not. I want you to do the camerawork.\u201d<\/p>\n

I said, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t know anything about the camera.\u201d He said, \u201cNo, I think you do.\u201d<\/p>\n

I said, \u201cWell. The way this first scene should be shot is, you see the three of them, then the two-shot for the joke, then you go over there for the reaction.\u201d He said, \u201cThat\u2019s exactly right.\u201d So then he left me alone for two weeks to camera-block the show and shoot it.<\/p>\n

And then when I finished that, he said, \u201cNow I\u2019m gonna leave you alone to edit it because that\u2019s where you really learn to direct.\u201d So I worked on the editing and then showed it to him, we worked some more, and then my agent, unbeknownst to me, took the pilot to Grant Tinker before it had ever been on the air. And then Grant hired me for a whole season at MTM.<\/p>\n

I think Norman had really wanted and was looking for a woman director. To create one. Now, then, Grant, who was of course very pro-woman, when he saw some of my work, he really liked it and all the guys who were producing liked it. The second show I directed for them was a [Mary Tyler Moore Show] show called \u201cChuckles Bites the Dust,\u201d which TV Guide named the #1 television episode of all time.<\/p>\n

Yeah, that\u2019s everybody\u2019s favorite from that show.<\/b><\/p>\n

Well, not everybody\u2019s favorite. But because of that, I suddenly was a valuable commodity.<\/p>\n

How come you never did another Mary Tyler Moore?<\/b><\/p>\n

The show was winding down. I could have, but then what happened was I started getting others. I got a M*A*S*H, and I got a Rich Man, Poor Man<\/a>, and then I got a feature [film, First Love<\/a> in 1977]. And when I got the feature, then I was out of the market for television, I couldn\u2019t work. I could\u2019ve gone back there\u2014I think they only had one more season left.<\/p>\n

\"nurses\"
\nYour M*A*S*H episode [The Nurses], I think, is my favorite of all your work.<\/b><\/p>\n

Oh, thank you! I really liked that.<\/p>\n

It really feels like it\u2019s pushing the boundaries of that show.<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah.<\/p>\n

And it feels like M*A*S*H never was the same show after that episode. It turned Hot Lips into a human instead of a punch line. Were they trying to do that? Were you trying to do that?<\/b><\/p>\n

I wasn\u2019t thinking about it as being groundbreaking. What happened was I got that script and\u2014you know, in those days, as a director, you got to have a conference about the script before you actually went to shoot it. So what I said to them was, I felt like there was no real precipitating incident in the script [to cause Margaret \u2018Hot Lips\u2019 Houlihan\u2019s ending monologue about \u201cthe rotten way you all have been treating me\u201d.]. And they said to me, \u201cWe don\u2019t want it to be conventional in the sense that something bad happens and then something else happens.\u201d They said, \u201cWe want her to do it because it\u2019s so hot there, because the whole way everything is, is conspiring.\u201d And I said, \u201cOh, okay.\u201d<\/p>\n

That clued me in that they were\u2014I can say this\u2014serious artists. They weren\u2019t just doing a joke show. They really wanted to do something that you\u2019d be apt to see more in a movie or a play.<\/p>\n

And then, the other part of it is, my nature is to really… I feel like my obligation as a director is to the story. The \u2018Once upon a time\u2019 image and the believable human quality of the story. So I definitely wanted to create what it was really like for everybody. Actually, Mike Nichols said it great, years later on Inside the Actor\u2019s Studio\u2014somebody asked him, \u201cWhat is it you\u2019re trying to do when you direct?\u201d And he said, \u201cI try to show it like it really is.\u201d And if I had a motto as a director, that would be my motto. I think that\u2019s why the show felt like it had more substance.<\/p>\n

\"marychuckles\"
\nI think it\u2019s interesting to look at that and the Mary Tyler Moore one next to each other because the emotional arc of the two of them is really similar. You have this building pressure from an awkward situation and then it blows up in this really great monologue.<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah, you\u2019re right. I hadn\u2019t thought about that, but you\u2019re absolutely right. Coming to a show like Mary Tyler Moore, if you have any brains at all, you don\u2019t tell these people how to do this show, you just simply lead them. I was just writing about this. When I came into the show, I wanted that [episode]. When I met Grant on the lot, they were going to give me Georgette\u2019s Wedding<\/a>\u00a0because I was a woman director, so I was going to get the wedding.<\/p>\n

But he had told me about this script about death and I said, \u201cOh my God would I love to do that.\u201d And when the script arrived at my house, we talked a little bit because a mutual person we knew in common had just died and she\u2019d been a member of Second City, so at the memorial service everybody was making each other laugh. And that was sort of the inspiration for that script.<\/p>\n

And when the script was delivered to my house, just the week before I was supposed to shoot, I opened the envelope and it was Chuckles [Bites the Dust]! I remember running in to my husband saying, \u201cOh my God, Bill, I got Chuckles!\u201d Which I really wanted to do.<\/p>\n

And then when I went in, and we were working on the show, about two or three days into it, Mary suddenly stopped in the middle of rehearsal and said, \u201cYou know, I don\u2019t know if we should do this show,\u201d she said, \u201cbecause it\u2019s about death and I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s really funny.\u201d<\/p>\n

And I just immediately said, \u201cWell, I feel that it\u2019s a really important show to do. Because everybody finds themselves in that situation when it\u2019s not appropriate to laugh. You\u2019re at a funeral, or you\u2019re a kid and an opera singer comes to your high school.\u201d And I said, \u201cPeople feel bad about themselves. But if we do a show where that happens to Mary Richards, a lot of people are going to feel a lot better about themselves.\u201d<\/p>\n

And there was this pause, and then Mary turned and looked at me and said, \u201cLet\u2019s go to work.\u201d<\/p>\n

And I feel like, you know when you say: \u201cWhat was your contribution to the show?\u201d, I feel like that moment was my contribution to the show. Because then everybody had a real mission. It was a really worthwhile show to do. That and knowing that Mary could do the last moment<\/a>. I said, \u201cWe don\u2019t need to rehearse that last moment. You can do that.\u201d I just knew she could do it, and she believed me and delivered it brilliantly.<\/p>\n

I started watching that show, I think, two years ago. And as soon as I mentioned I was watching it, the first one my mom, who had watched it live, brought up, was that episode.<\/b><\/p>\n

Oh, really? Oh, well tell your mom hello for me!<\/p>\n

I will. [I did.] So, you knew going into it that that was a special script?<\/b><\/p>\n

I knew it even before that. I knew the idea was special. And when I saw script I went, \u201cHoly mackerel, this is fabulous.\u201d And when I was directing it, the way you worked then was you had a late afternoon taped show, which was considered a rehearsal but you taped it, and then you did the evening show. You had lunch and dinner in between, and then you did the evening show. And I was with my husband before we went back over to the studio for the taping and I said, \u201cYou know, I don\u2019t think anybody but me knows how funny this show is. This show is so spectacular. If people laugh on this line (and I named the line), they aren\u2019t going to stop laughing.\u201d<\/p>\n

Then, on the set, when we were shooting the show, that line came, which was about five lines into the show, and the audience? Huge laugh. And then they were rolling and rolling and rolling and rolling. And I remember [Producer] Jim Brooks coming over to me and saying, \u201cIt\u2019s really going well, isn\u2019t it?\u201d And I said, \u201cYeah!\u201d But it was really true. In my heart and soul, I knew that show was special. And I had the same feeling about Mary Hartman, too. I knew Mary Hartman was something that people really hadn\u2019t seen before.<\/p>\n

Mary Hartman\u2019s amazing because it feels like there\u2019s still nothing else that\u2019s quite like it. I mean, that first episode is funny, but it\u2019s still so tense\u2014it feels like <\/b>Play It As It Lays<\/b> or something.<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah, and see that\u2019s what I mean about your sense, which is really very pleasing to me, about the M*A*S*H, is that Mary Hartman <\/i>was really what it was really like, even though it was insane. Because it was… I hadn\u2019t looked at it in a couple of years, and I was just doing a thing in Washington where they showed that and I did a Q&A. I looked at the episode, the first one, and I went, \u201cJesus, the scenes between Tom and Mary are absolutely heartbreaking.\u201d They\u2019re just\u2014anybody who\u2019s been married is going to wince at those scenes. In a good way.<\/p>\n

Do you feel like your theory about television bore out?<\/b><\/p>\n

That it\u2019s destroying America? Oh my God, I feel like a prophet or something. I feel like Cassandra.<\/p>\n

I mean John, you and I are going to be best friends. I gotta tell you, I turn on CNN every day and I watch the manufacturing of this 24-hour news cycle. The manufacturing of disaster<\/i>\u2014it\u2019s also that thing Michael Moore said: \u2018everything that\u2019s broadcast on the news is to scare you\u2019. What it\u2019s costing us in politics\u2014the thing that\u2019s exciting is controversy, so politics has devolved to the point where it\u2019s all about winning and losing. The language is all war-talk or sports-talk. You know, \u201cObama was crushed today.\u201d The thing with the news, which didn\u2019t happen so much in the days when we were doing Mary Hartman, is the need to stimulate or irritate an audience to keep them watching. It\u2019s so enormous that controversies are created out of… I mean, of course a Congressman would be embarrassed, let\u2019s say a Republican Congressman would be totally embarrassed to support the minimum wage law because he would be characterized as \u2018caving\u2019.<\/p>\n

The other thing about television is, when I was growing up, to be entertained you had to read a book. You learned that it took you 60 pages, maybe, before it really caught you and was entertaining you. You put a clicker in somebody\u2019s hand, and they are absolutely destroying their ability to concentrate or to look at anything in depth. And don\u2019t get me started about Twitter. A profound thought in 140 words and it isn\u2019t even a haiku.<\/p>\n

But I could feel it coming with television. People took what was said on television as if it were the truth. And it\u2019s even worse now. It\u2019s so easy for a politician to lie about anything, and that lie, if it\u2019s spoken enough over a 24-hour cycle, people will believe it.<\/p>\n

We all become Mary Hartman staring at the yellow on the floor.<\/b><\/p>\n

Right, exactly. And she has a speech, it\u2019s not in the first episode, probably in the second or third, where she says (I can\u2019t quote it exactly), \u2018My floors have no waxy yellow buildup, my toothpaste has added whiteners, my underarms are so dry they\u2019re flaking. Why won\u2019t Tom sleep with me?\u2019<\/p>\n

It\u2019s beautiful but it\u2019s brutal.<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah. A lot of what that show was came from my concept, and the collaboration of Louise Lasser, who would do a lot of rewriting on the show.<\/p>\n

Really? I didn\u2019t know that.<\/b><\/p>\n

Oh, yeah. Louise was just incredible. Louise is, as she once put it: \u201cI\u2019m the smartest one in the room and nobody listens to me.\u201d And she was absolutely right. If you listened to Louise, she was so smart. And between us, one of the things I always felt about that character was that Mary Hartman was a dead person walking. And to find an actress who could play that, who was just ashes inside? Louise was just brilliant. I don\u2019t know anybody else who could have done that.<\/p>\n

\"louise\"<\/p>\n

She reminds me of Shelley Duvall.<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah, that sort of otherworldliness. Not landed. She hasn\u2019t landed here on the planet.<\/p>\n

You worked with some really incredibly talented ones\u2014do you think she was the top for you?<\/b><\/p>\n

The top talent? She was the smartest. Well, I\u2019m trying to think, because I worked with some awfully good people. Oh, is that an interesting question! Louise was limited, but not by her… she was limited by her style. Do you know what I mean? In any part she played, there was that Louise Lasser offstage quality.<\/p>\n

Yeah, she had sort of a narrow band.<\/b><\/p>\n

Right, exactly. Exactly. And some other people I worked with had much better range. Marisa Tomei, who I worked with on a show called Supermom\u2019s Daughter<\/a>, an afterschool special. She played a perfect, button-down, all-A\u2019s student girl whose parents wanted her to go to MIT. She got into MIT and all of that. Then my husband and I a couple years later went to see My Cousin Vinny<\/a>, and I leaned over to my husband and said, \u201cWhere\u2019s Marisa? Is she in this movie?\u201d I didn\u2019t recognize her! Her ability as an actress is, you\u2019re getting into the Kevin Spacey range. You\u2019re getting into the kind of place where the number of different kinds of people you can play with complete believability and honesty is… you know. So she\u2019s certainly up there among the most talented people I worked with.<\/p>\n

Do you think honesty is the key to great acting?<\/b><\/p>\n

Oh, yeah. I teach acting a lot, and one of the things I think is so fascinating about it is that you do need to find in the landscape of your own life experience, metaphorical experiences for the ones that the character goes through in the play. Then you have to kind of arrange them in order. They\u2019re all in you, but they\u2019re not necessarily arranged in the same manner that they are inside the character.<\/p>\n

After you\u2019ve done that, it really is all of you and your life experiences, but then you have to deliver it in the kind of style of the character. So that if it\u2019s somebody who\u2019s very quiet or if the character\u2019s very flamboyant, the same things are going on in the flamboyant person or the quiet person, but it\u2019s just style of expression that changes. The act of expression.<\/p>\n

So yeah, I think any art, any art that has to be manufactured, if it doesn\u2019t come from yourself, is going to be manufactured from things you\u2019ve seen somewhere else. You know what I mean? You\u2019re a writer, are you a writer mainly?<\/p>\n

I direct, too.<\/b><\/p>\n

Oh, you direct, well, I\u2019m sure you know, when you step on the set, if you\u2019re not willing to really address what a scene is about on its deepest level, you really don\u2019t have any ammunition to help your actors get to that level.<\/p>\n

Directors who aren\u2019t willing to experience what the moment is that they\u2019re asking for from their actors, they\u2019ll never get it from the actor, because they\u2019ll sense that there\u2019s a reluctance to go there.<\/p>\n

Your bio says that your workshop is about teaching directors how to communicate their vision to the actors and to the crew. Is that what you mean by this?<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah. It\u2019s more, it\u2019s called \u201cHow To Direct The Actor, or How To Run the Most Important Piece of Equipment on the Set.\u201d Basically what I do, at Sundance for instance when I do that, the first thing I do is I run a little mini acting class, and get the directors to learn some immediate techniques for acting that get connected and put them through the experience of being directed. And that\u2019s very educational for a lot of directors.<\/p>\n

One of the things they do is I give them what\u2019s called a generic scene that\u2019s two pages, it could be anything, and first they have to direct the scene, and then the director has to act in the same scene, for a different director. So what happens is they go through both experiences. My favorite example is, at Sundance one day, at the end of that exercise I asked the actors to tell the director what the experience was like, to tell the director anything that the director said or did that was helpful to them, and then I have them tell anything that director could have said or done differently that might have been more helpful.<\/p>\n

And I remember this one woman director who had just been<\/i> directed said, \u201cOh, I learned so much! He asked me to cry in the scene,\u201d she said. \u201cI got so frightened. I\u2019ll never ask an actor to do that again.\u201d I find, when a director comes through working with me they tend to be much more compassionate to the actors. They find out how hard it is, and they come out a little kinder to the actors, which oftentimes is all you really need to be, to be a good director. Just be nice to somebody.<\/p>\n

Do you think directing changed your concept of what it takes to be a good actor, at all?<\/b><\/p>\n

It made me much more aware of story. I always had a concept of the role, but I also wanted to please my director. So once I started directing, I started developing much fuller concepts of my character. In other words, I would look at the piece and I would say, \u201cWhat does this character have to be or do to fulfill what the whole play needs?\u201d I absolutely do think it improved my acting, because I started looking at it with more responsibility for what the part was.<\/p>\n

So when I started working with an actor, as a director, I started to make sure that they were congruent with what the piece was about. So as an actress, if I\u2019m taking a job, and I\u2019ve just taken it and we haven\u2019t really sat down to figure out if we\u2019re congruent with each other, I do believe it\u2019s my responsibility to do what that director needs to the best of my ability. I\u2019ll make the best case I can for what it is.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s also really weird. I\u2019ll tell you, one of the really interesting changes about having been an actor first, and then after having had some success as a director, I\u2019d occasionally go off on an acting role. And I realized I didn\u2019t have the right personality anymore to get a job as an actress. I was much too much of a boss. That wonderful \u2018please let me please you\u2019 Joan Darling had converted into \u2018could we put the cloth over there, and then you guys do that\u2019.\u00a0 Totally different person. And it\u2019s really funny because in my house, when I do an acting job, I tend to revert back to an actress mentality. I\u2019ll come home and my husband will say to me, \u201cWhen is the director coming back?\u201d<\/p>\n

So do you agree with what Norman Lear told you, that editing is where you learn to direct?<\/b><\/p>\n

Oh, God yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve probably had the experience. You get in the editing room and you start putting together the story, and you realize what you didn\u2019t <\/i>shoot. You realize that awful moment when you look and you remember that on set you were saying to yourself, \u201cThis isn\u2019t really right,\u201d and then you moved on. And that moment that isn\u2019t right is going to burn your heart every time you look at the piece.<\/p>\n

I learned to be just absolutely dogged in getting, to the best of my ability, what I understood I needed for a scene. It made me much braver. Figuring, \u201cOh, I\u2019ll just make up the time somewhere else, because if I don\u2019t get this I don\u2019t have my movie.\u201d And I\u2019m sure we all sit there and go \u201cOh no.\u201d<\/p>\n

In the old days, when you had a really good one, they\u2019d pull on your sleeve and say, \u201cJoan, you really want to get that close-up.\u201d You\u2019d say, \u201cWell, we\u2019re losing the light and I\u2019ve got to get that…\u201d \u201cNo, Joan, you\u2019ll be sorry.\u201d It\u2019s what they used to say to us: \u201cYou\u2019ll be sorry.\u201d Then you\u2019re in the editing room going, \u201cOh, am I sorry.<\/i>\u201d<\/p>\n

\"whatif\"
\nOne of your later directorial efforts was this <\/b>Amazing Stories<\/a> episode, “What If<\/a>“\u2014do you remember that one, it\u2019s about the kid?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I sure do.<\/p>\n

Oh, I love that. I feel like it\u2019s Mary Hartman with a child.<\/b><\/p>\n

Oh, thank you. I\u2019m so glad. Yeah, I loved that one too. I knew Spielberg because my husband and I had been really close [to him] for years before any of us made it. So, working for him was just a dream.<\/p>\n

You knew Spielberg before you guys made it?<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah.<\/p>\n

Did you know he was going to become, you know, Spielberg?<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah. We sure did. I knew. The way I met him was I had done an episode of The Psychiatrist\u00a0[called “Par for the Course\u201d] when I was out here [in California] acting, where I played a woman whose husband was very ill. And I had quit the business, or was trying to quit the business, because I just couldn\u2019t get a record as an actress and I had some really good films, and nothing much was happening, so I went back and was living on Cape Cod. And I got a call from the guy who had been my agent saying they had a part at Universal and they couldn\u2019t… I guess the person who was supposed to do it couldn\u2019t do it? They asked could I be in Los Angeles the next morning. I said, \u201cOh, I don\u2019t know, let me look.\u201d<\/p>\n

So I looked up plane schedules and I could make it, but I couldn\u2019t be on the set by noon because my plane landed at ten in the morning. But I had just made it to the set at noon, and it was the story of a golfer who was dying of cancer, and I was playing his wife. It was a big-time professional golfer. And I walked onto the set and I read the script, it was a really nice part. And I walked onto the set, and there was this kid in a cowboy hat directing.<\/p>\n

So I went over to listen to him direct\u2014this was the second thing that Stevie had ever done\u2014I listened to him direct and I just went, \u201cOh my God, this is really a director.\u201d I went over and sat under a tree just making sure I knew the lines for the scene I was going to do, and he came over and introduced himself and I introduced myself and then he said, \u201cYou know, this scene, it\u2019s kind of like… you remember when Kennedy was shot, you remember the way Jackie Kennedy\u2014\u201d Because it was the scene where the golfer collapses on the golf course and I come running in. I just put my hand up and said, \u201cDon\u2019t say anything else, I know exactly <\/i>what you want.\u201d So I did the scene and it was exactly what he wanted.<\/p>\n

He said later, \u201cYou know, you almost ruined me. I thought everything was going to be that easy to direct.\u201d Because all he said was half a sentence to me and I knew exactly what he wanted. It turns out at the time this was a well-known, incredibly well-reviewed episode. And because of working together on that, we became friends, and he met my husband, and we used to go to movies together all the time. We just spent a lot of time together.<\/p>\n

And then, he directed Duel. <\/i>And we hadn\u2019t been in town enough to be as close as we had been, but we would go on the set. We were watching him direct and my husband says to me, \u201cThis guy is going to rule the world.\u201d And we tried to get him a job at American International, Roger Corman\u2019s company. My husband said to them, \u201cYou want to grab him now, because he\u2019s going to be the biggest thing to hit this town.\u201d<\/p>\n

So we knew. Just being around him, you knew. And having been directed by him, I knew. And seeing how sophisticated he was.<\/p>\n

I loved it when, when I first got my first feature, I called up Steven and said, \u201cListen, Steven. I\u2019m going to be a director, what should I do?\u201d<\/p>\n

And he said, \u201cGet a very good pair of shoes.\u201d<\/p>\n

I said, \u201cSo when the archivists call me up and say \u2018What did Steven say,\u2019 you want me to say, \u2018Get a very good pair of shoes\u2019?\u201d<\/p>\n

And he said, \u201cWell, you really need them. And don\u2019t shoot a lot of people coming in and out of doors.\u201d<\/p>\n

And I said, \u201cOh. Okay. Now, is that <\/i>what you want me to tell the archivists?”<\/p>\n

And he said, \u201cWell, you know, it really doesn\u2019t work.\u201d<\/p>\n

We spent a lot of time together when we were really good pals.<\/p>\n

I can\u2019t believe Roger Corman missed the boat on him. His instincts are usually so good.<\/b><\/p>\n

I forget what it was, but it was some picture where they were looking for a director and we kept saying \u201cYou\u2019ve got to hire this kid.\u201d But nobody knew him then. But, you knew. He\u2019s just one of those people. He\u2019s a really nice guy, and so knowledgeable about music and art and, you know, all the elements you really need to master to be a good director. He really always had this incredible abiding curiosity about everything.<\/p>\n

Clu Gulager was in that episode, who I always thought was such a good actor.<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah, you know, you can\u2019t get it. I\u2019ve been trying to get a copy for years, even Steven tried. It\u2019s disappeared! There are a couple of biographies of Steven where they talk about that episode at length, about the acting in that episode and how great it was and what a great episode it was. But I don\u2019t know why it disappeared. Even Sid Sheinberg couldn\u2019t get me a copy of it.<\/p>\n

How did you wind up on Amazing Stories, then? Was that a bit of a reunion?<\/b><\/p>\n

Because once Steven decided to do a television series, I guess we were always coming by when the other one was working and I was hanging out and he said, \u201cDo you want to do one?\u201d<\/p>\n

I said, \u201cSure.\u201d And the first one I did was called \u201cThe Sitter<\/a>.\u201d<\/p>\n

The Netflix copy is all jerky, so I couldn\u2019t finish that one.<\/b><\/p>\n

That was a really cute one about a young mother whose kids are wild and she can\u2019t control them, and then a nanny appears who comes in and straightens out the whole household. So that was the first one I did, and then the second one [\u201cWhat If?\u201d], Steven\u2019s sister wrote. Did you know that? His sister Annie wrote that.<\/p>\n

I just loved that. I had a sense of what a special piece that was. I just thought it was so magical and so lovely. I had a great time doing that one.<\/p>\n

I like the look of it a lot, that really cavernous look.<\/b><\/p>\n

When Spielberg set up a company and you worked and talked about what you wanted, it wasn\u2019t like any other television show. Because I remember you had time to sit down with the cinematographer and I said, \u201cThis show is really about light. This show is about the heavenly light.\u201d So the cinematographer built in, if you go look at it now, their bed in the master bedroom glows underneath it, because he goes into the light and comes back and is reborn. Like when the door opens [at the end] and the doctor says \u201cIt\u2019s a boy,\u201d and it just goes into white.<\/p>\n

That must\u2019ve been a totally different experience.<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah, because there was a lot for me to do. Like I said, the biggest thing on those [Mary Tyler Moore style] shows where the actors were so good and writing was so good, was to be respectful. And that\u2019s not to say you didn\u2019t make contributions, you did. A lot of it, a lot of the contribution to the M*A*S*H was how much I knew about acting. So I could really help the actors, not necessarily by telling them things, but I created a situation where Loretta Swit just got smacked by what was going on. And then I didn\u2019t let her rehearse it, I shot it right away.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s the same thing you did with Mary!<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah, right! Maybe the secret of my directing is not doing anything.<\/p>\n

It seems like you have a good instinct from when to let an emotion sizzle.<\/b><\/p>\n

Yeah, and that comes from teaching acting for so long. In fact, I started teaching acting at 18 because I couldn\u2019t find any teachers that I liked. So I was trying to figure out how we did it. And then when I got to New York, I ran into some really good teachers.<\/p>\n

Why did you leave directing?<\/b><\/p>\n

I did it for a long time. I did it for about fifteen years. Then I started getting more acting opportunities, and I was kind of entertained by the acting for a while. The two things, though, that really stopped me\u2014one is I really didn\u2019t like hustling for a job. One job after another, I really worked a lot. But to do the better pieces, it really meant having to get out and sell and sell and sell, and I\u2019d done a lot of that. Within the framework of certain jobs, you have to do a lot of sell to preserve the integrity of the work and all that. So I grew tired from that.<\/p>\n

And then, at the time that I kind of drifted\u2014I just sort of drifted away from it\u2014what happened was, television had changed. You know, when you were really a big part of a collaboration, with The Mary Tyler Moore <\/i>company, or the M*A*S*H,<\/i> or even Magnum [P.I.]<\/a>, in that era you were really an integral part of it. But directing got to a period where it was really trapped, and the writer\/producers were doing most of what you\u2019d consider the director\u2019s job. I worked for a company and they had worked for a system where you had to come in before you met with the actors and script, and give them all the shots. And then you had to sign a piece of paper agreeing to do all those shots. And then if something happened, some marvelous moment happened on set, and you wanted to shoot it, you had to stop production and call one of the producers down to get it approved.<\/p>\n

So, I mean, this was really nuts. It sounds like you get the way that I work. You really have to create the life first, and then get the picture of it\u2014you don\u2019t shove the life into a series of pictures that you have in your head.<\/p>\n

One person I worked with was very clich\u00e9. I would come in with a shot\u2014which was totally against my nature\u2014and he would say \u201cWhy don\u2019t you rack focus from the door?\u201d And I would say \u201cTell me how that tells the story.\u201d And they would have no answer; they just thought racking focus was cool. So I just got\u2014I\u2019m maybe too old to fight those battles anymore. I just got too tired of it.<\/p>\n

Now television has sort of come back, with some really good stuff, and strangely enough I just a few days ago finished a screenplay. And then I\u2019ve also, I created a one-woman show, a Shakespeare show, which I did in New York and I did in L.A. which was very successful and which I occasionally do in different parts of the country. So I kind of got involved in the acting, and my husband who\u2019s a screenwriter and playwright, we had a venue where every year we\u2019d do a new play. So needless to say, all the good lines go to me. If you\u2019re an actress you should definitely marry a playwright.<\/p>\n

So I\u2019ve been busy doing plays and busy acting, but I didn\u2019t want to pursue the fighting that went into directing in that period when television was so mechanical. But, as I said, the times have swung around again. And the work I do at Sundance is very rewarding. That\u2019s a lot of mentoring both when you\u2019re at the lab teaching and then afterwards.<\/p>\n

And it takes as much energy and commitment to do something you don\u2019t love as to do something you do love, so, I didn\u2019t want to put my energy towards things that I didn\u2019t really care about.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

\"joandarling\"
\nJoan Darling (bottom left), part of the cast of Owen Marshall: Counselor at Law<\/a> (1971-1973)<\/h5>\n

Joan Darling entered show business as an actress on the New York theater scene in the 1960s, then became a fixture of early 70’s television. In 1974, she made the leap from acting to directing and quickly made history as one of the first and most successful women directors in television. She had an instant knack for it\u2014her debut,\u00a0Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman<\/a>, a soap opera parody, has become an enduring cult classic for its dark-edged humor and deep understanding of the desperation and sadness of the American home.<\/em><\/p>\n

Highlights of her career include a Mary Tyler Moore<\/a>\u00a0episode, Chuckles Bites the Dust<\/a>, which, for its deft tightrope-walk between comedy and pathos, TV Guide calls the greatest television episode ever; a classic M*A*S*H<\/a> episode, The Nurses<\/a>, which \u00a0revolutionized the way the show portrayed women; and a leading role in an episode of The Psychiatrist<\/a>,\u00a0directed by\u00a0a pre-Jaws<\/a>, pre-Duel<\/a> Spielberg.<\/em><\/p>\n

These days, Joan teaches acting and directing classes at the Sundance Filmmakers Lab<\/a>.\u00a0She agreed to a phone interview, and in about an hour, I learned more about the arts of acting and directing than I ever thought possible:<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[25,2505],"tags":[3927,3932,3926,3894,3930,3899,2402,3900,3913,3911,3912,3919,3909,3902,3903,3914,3925,3901,70,3920,3886,3888,3887,3885,95,3924,3904,3922,3933,3916,3917,3835,3907,3889,3892,3017,3915,3896,1462,3918,3309,3908,3890,3891,3928,3921,3910,3929,3906,3905,3587,786,3931,104,185,67,3898,3923,3893,3895,3897],"class_list":["post-4821","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-allposts","category-johns-interviews","tag-amazing-stories","tag-amazing-stories-the-sitter","tag-amazing-stories-what-if","tag-chuckles-bites-the-dust","tag-clu-gulager","tag-dorothy-arzner","tag-duel","tag-elaine-may","tag-first-love-1977","tag-first-love-film","tag-first-love-movie","tag-georgettes-wedding","tag-golda-meir","tag-grant-tinker","tag-homeland","tag-hot-lips","tag-how-to-direct-the-actor","tag-ida-lupino","tag-jaws","tag-jim-brooks","tag-joan-darling","tag-joan-darling-actress","tag-joan-darling-director","tag-joan-darling-interview","tag-john-damico","tag-kevin-spacey","tag-lesli-glatter","tag-louise-lasser","tag-magnum-p-i","tag-margaret-hot-lips-houlihan","tag-margaret-houlihan","tag-marisa-tomei","tag-mary-hartman","tag-mary-hartman-mary-hartman","tag-mary-tyler-moore","tag-mash","tag-mash-hot-lips","tag-mash-the-nurses","tag-michael-moore","tag-mike-nichols","tag-my-cousin-vinny","tag-normal-lear","tag-owen-marshall","tag-owen-marshall-counselor-at-law","tag-par-for-the-course","tag-play-it-as-it-lays","tag-rich-man-poor-man","tag-roger-corman","tag-roseanne","tag-scandal","tag-second-city","tag-shelley-duvall","tag-sid-sheinberg","tag-smug-film-2","tag-smugfilm","tag-steven-spielberg","tag-sundance-filmmakers-lab","tag-supermoms-daughter","tag-the-mary-tyler-moore-show","tag-the-nurses","tag-the-psychiatrist"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4821","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4821"}],"version-history":[{"count":21,"href":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4821\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":4850,"href":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4821\/revisions\/4850"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4821"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4821"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/smugfilm.com\/oldsite\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4821"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}